Tuesday, October 15, 2013

Questions about Original Sin

I was just thinking about the doctrine of Original Sin...


The majority of Christians believe we're born with it. Modern Bible versions like the NIV even say that we are guilty of it from the time we're conceived! 

OK...so...if I've been wrong...and if this doctrine is true...I need to be accountable to God for my own beliefs and not just go with the flow...and I need to be prepared with an answer for the faith that is in me to whoever asks me...so...lemme ask some questions...all of which need to be answered in a way that means God is just, fair, and love...because He is. 

So...here we go...


- Romans 1 says everything we wanna know about God is knowable thru what's been made...thru the Creation. We are His Creation...so what does sin being "in our blood" tell us about Him?

- Adam n' Eve were created perfect and w/out sin in their blood...yet they sinned. How did they sin? Specifically? Was it a physical or a spiritual event? If it was a physical event, how did their perfect bodies lead them to make a wrong choice? If it was a spiritual event, how did this cross over into the physical inheritance of their offspring?

- What does Adam n' Eve's bodies being created perfect and yet still being capable of sin tell us about God? What does that tell us about the nature of sin?

- How did their sin change the physical bodies of all their descendants? Did their choice to sin with their perfect bodies then alter their DNA? Is THIS how sin is then transmitted? If not...how?

- Is the transmission of sin spiritual? If so, how exactly is it transmitted? Is God in charge of ensuring this transmission? Or, is it somehow "magic?" Obviously not, and even still, the magic would have to have a cause and source...who or what is behind the spiritual transmission to all humans? 

- Where does sin actually reside in us? If it is present in zygotes or fertilized eggs...it can't be in our minds or hearts or blood...because we don't have those yet at the moment of fertilization so is it just in our cells? Our atoms? Must be in our DNA since that is present at the moment of conception.

- If this altered their DNA somehow...why did God build that potential into the first human beings? Why did God build it into the 1st two people that if they chose to sin that this would cause sin to be a physical part of their offspring and though sin is detrimental to us that all future humans would be ensured of indulging in it?

- What does God creating a system in the original human beings that would transmit sin to all offspring mean about God's will for all of us? If God built a system into humans that ensured sin would be part of our physical make-up, is it therefore somehow His will that we sin for some reason? What does that say about God?


- If God did not create a system in the 1st two humans by which sin would activate something that would put sin into all of their future offspring, how did it happen? Who did it? Is there a power over God that causes sin to be put into all of God's children and why is God powerless to stop that?

- How would ensuring sin to be part of the physical bodies of all of Adam n' Eve's offspring factor into God's battle against sin? The mission of Jesus coming to earth was about defeating satan and sin...The angel told Mary that her son, Jesus, would come to save us from our sins. So, how does God creating a system in the human body which ENSURES that sin will reign in each new human from conception help God in His ultimate battle plan against sin?

- Would Adam n' Eve's offspring had been capable of sin without this transmission of Adam's sin if this imputation had not begun? If so, how does the concept of "being born sinful" make any difference? Why would it even be "necessary" to believe?

- If this transmission of sin is an alteration of our DNA...can it be seen on a microscope?

- If this is something literally in our bodies...could it eventually possibly be seen and identified and can it be eradicated thru something physical like a medicine?

- If it is something physical, and we identified it...and could then find a way to eradicate it or create a "shot" or treatment to eradicate it, would Jesus' death have been in vain?

- If this is something literally in our bodies that's transmitted thru our DNA, is it possible, like all things about our human bodies, that someone could be born with a "birth defect" of NOT having had sin transmitted? And, if so, would this be considered a birth defect to be born without sin? And, if someone was born without it...could they still sin? And, if so, then what is the purpose of being born with it?


- Would Adam n' Eve's children have been able to ask God why they were not given the same fair chance against sin as their parents? God IS fair...so somehow putting sin into all of the offspring of Adam and Eve MUST be fair. How it is fair?

- Was God's heart broken when He witnessed mankind's first sin? Would it be likely that He'd have done something in reaction to this opening of Pandora's Box to ensure that more or less sin would occur?

- God cursed the ground...mercifully...because He is merciful and is love. A mind that has too much idle time is more likely to sin. So, why would He do one thing to help us avoid sin and at the same time impute us all with sin to ensure we all spring forth from the womb in it?

- Is the sin literally in the blood? Physically so? If it is, is sin a physical thing? If it is a physical thing how does it affect us morally? How does a physical aspect of humans cause us to make bad choices?

- Why does the Bible always refers to the sins of our flesh? Does the Bible ever speak of sin in our blood?

- Why does Romans say..."For all have sinned" rather than pointing out that, "all have sin?"

- Why did the ancient Jews...(who wrote the Bible) NOT believe we were born sinful? Why do they not today? 

- If the Jews did not believe in Original Sin, how did it end up in the Bible? Is it in the original scriptures? (answer to this is that it actually isn't in the original writings)

- If sin physical and is NOT about our choices, then, do our choices even matter? If we are sinful apart from making choices, why do we need worry about how well we make choices? What would this say about God?

- A lot of people believe homosexuality is genetic and physical. A lot of Christians reject that idea because they say that you can't be "born a homosexual" that it is a choice. If they believe that you can be born a sinner why can a person not be born a homosexual?


- Can angels and other moral beings (like the elders, etc, spoken of in Revelation) without physical bodies sin? Why? How?

- Can a human being sin without their body? How? What is the mind/body link? What causes what? Does the body cause our mind to sin or does the mind cause our body to sin? Or, are the two completely separate?

- If Jesus did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped but made Himself a bond servant...came to earth...and went thru the most excruciating form of death known to man (crucifixion is the root word for excruciating) all because of sin, does that mean that "my" sin killed Jesus?

- If I had no choice but as to BE a sinner...if it was some thing I was born with, how does that still make me guilty? What other things do we see in the Creation (daily lives) where we accept that we are guilty of things we didn't do ourselves? When do we punish our own children for things they didn't do?


- If I love Jesus and yet, something I had no control over killed him...does that not make me a victim? Could it not be likened to Adam grabbing my hand and taking a knife and stabbing Jesus with it? Could it not be likened to me being tied in my car as it drives over my own child? What kind of judge would judge me as guilty for killing my own child if I had been "forced" to do it...and if a human judge would not judge me guilty for it why would God judge me guilty of killing Jesus? What does this say about God?

- What does it say about God as judge that when He looked at "me" killing Jesus...with Adam's hand on my hand thrusting the knife...and God declares ME guilty and gives ME the death penalty for the murder...what DOES that say about God? God is loving, just, and fair...so how is it loving, just, and fair for me to be given the death penalty for something Adam did?

- If Adam took my hand and used my hand to nail Jesus to the cross...do I not have a case against Adam and against God for allowing Adam to force me to kill my beloved Jesus? What does this say about God that He allowed this to happen to me?

- When Christians evangelize people they normally tell people they must acknowledge that they have been sinful from birth and apologize to God for their sin. Does this not mean then that God wants me to apologize for the fact that Adam used my body to kill Jesus? What does this say about God?

- Since sin is not part of God's original design for mankind, this means that sin being present in the blood is a "defect". Does God expect me to apologize for a birth defect? What does that say about God? Are there other defects in my body that God holds me accountable for also?

- If sin is part of God's design (because He built it into the 1st two humans for this to happen if they sinned)... then does God create me with a bias toward the thing that killed Him and then having tilted the balance to the "sin" side expect me to be able to overcome it and apologize for failing? What does this say about God?

- What does it say about the God who died because of sin that He tilted the balance in mankind in favor of sin? Why would He do that? If He is against sin and hates sin and if God is a God of LIFE and sin leads to death why would He tilt the balance in favor of sin? How is that fair? What would be His reason for doing this to mankind?

- Why did God write this in the Bible if He didn't mean it:
"The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." Ezekiel 18:20

- Jesus said, "Unless you repent you will perish." More than once it's mentioned:


Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.


Luke 13:5 
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” 

2 Peter 3:9 
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 

Does this mean that all those guilty of sin perish UNLES
S they repent or does this not mean this?


- What does this then mean for abortions...miscarriages, still births, and young humans who die before capable of comprehending what "repentance" is and do it? 

- Is there a verse in the Bible that says that repentance does not apply to children who are yet too young to comprehend repentance? And, if so, why would repentance not apply to children if they are all equally sinners as adults?

- If Jesus said all guilty of sin must repent or perish...and there are some humans who die before repentance is possible...if there is no verse that says children have an exception to this rule...then...children "perish." What does this say about God?

- Why would Jesus say this if children are born guilty of sin and yet incapable of comprehending repentance? He said unless we repent we'll perish, children are guilty of sin and incapable of repentance, yet He said: 

"And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." 
Matt. 18:2-4


- How does a grown-up become "converted" to be like a child...when a child is guilty of sin yet incapable of processing repentance? How does this make sense and what does this command by Jesus say about God?

- What is meant by, "the soul that sins shall die" in Ezekiel 18? Why make such a distinction if we are guilty of sin the moment we begin to exist?

- Is sin a noun or a verb? Does it make a difference?

- In the New Testament, in the Greek, there is one word used for flesh. That word appears where it talks about us fulfilling the desires of the "flesh"...

Romans 7:25
...on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Romans 13:14
But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

Galatians 5:24
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

And it is the same word that is used here...

1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

Hebrews 2:13-15
Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

Romans 8:2-4
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spiri
t.





- Why would the Bible say that Jesus had the same flesh as me if it is not true? Why would the Bible tell me Jesus had the same flesh as me if His flesh was actually different?

- Why would the Bible point out that Jesus had the same flesh as me if He was without sin and I am imputed with it? How did that happen? How was I born with it and how was He not if He had the same flesh as I do? What would that say about God?

- If I and Jesus were born with the same flesh and He lived without sin, wouldn't pointing this out in the Bible mean that I am to learn that I have no excuse for sin because He had the same flesh as me and yet He didn't sin? What would that say about God?

- If Jesus came to earth and did NOT have the same flesh as me...would that say that God tilted the balance in Jesus' favor and how was that fair? Does God hate an unfair balance or not?


Proverbs 11:1

A false balance is an abomination to the Lord, But a just weight is His delight.

Proverbs 16:11
A just balance and scales belong to the Lord; All the weights of the bag are His concern.





- If Jesus did not have the same flesh as me, certainly satan would have known that. Why did satan bother to even tempt Jesus? Why is Jesus honored for having not given in to that temptation if He had no chance of doing so?

- Jesus didn't sin just because He was born without it, why did Adam and Even sin and what does this mean about Jesus' valor or virtue? If Jesus was incapable of sinning, big deal that He didn't. Why would God "brag" about Jesus being the same as us if He actually wasn't...and then "brag" that Jesus was without sin if He really didn't have the option to? How does this make sense and what does this say about God?

- What does this verse in Isaiah mean about Jesus? Are these verses possibly not actually a prophecy about Jesus? What could it mean that He would reach an age where He'd know the difference between good and evil and how to make the choice for good?

Isaiah 7:14-16
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call H
is name Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.

- How does this verse in James about choices apply to us if we do not choose to be sinful? Is sin therefore a choice or is it a "thing" that we are born with? What does this say about God if it is a choice?


James 4:17
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin. 
-What does these verses about Jesus' flesh mean?
1 John 4:2 
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 

2 John 1:7 
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.





- If the original Greek uses the same word for my flesh as for the flesh of Jesus...and the Bible says many times that Jesus had the same flesh as me...for it to then say that the way I know true Christians from false ones is by whether or not they agree that Jesus had the same flesh as me...what does that say about most Christians because of their denial of that?

- What did David mean by this if our bodies are born with a preference toward sin:


Psalm 31:10
For my life is spent with sorrow And my years with sighing; My strength has failed because of my iniquity, And my body has wasted away.

Psalm 32:3
When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long.



- If our bodies have an inclination toward sin or are born "sinful" would they not desire sin all the time the way our bodies crave food? And, so what does this mean about all of my physical drives? I have a drive for food and water, for example. Are those drives "sinful?" If not, how do I determine which "drives" are sinful and which aren't?

- If my body is inclined toward sin or imputed with sin shouldn't fulfilling sinful desires satisfy my body? Why would my body waste away if I gratified it's desires for sin? 

- If our bodies are born with an inclination to sin and a craving for it, how do we see this demonstrated in newborn babies? According to Attachment Parenting, we're to be responsive to our babies because responding to their cues actually helps their brains grow healthy. Does this mean that newborn babies craving for sin is actually good for them if we respond to them? What does that mean about God?

- Would "wasting away" when gratifying my body's desire for sin not mean that my body actually is harmed by and reacts negatively to me sinning? Why would this be if I am sinful physically?

- If my body reacts negatively to sin...what does that actually say about sin and the way my body is created? 

- If my body reacts negatively to sin...what does that say about God and how He has worked to protect me from sinning?

- If my body reacts negatively to sin...but I believe that my body is sinful...how will that affect my perception of right and wrong?

- How does a lie detector work? If my body IS sinful...why would it react in a scientifically measurable way? If my body DOES react negatively in a measurable way...what does that mean about God?

- If I am sinful from conception, what does Psalm 139 mean by:
You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother’s womb.
I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;


- Does Psalm 139 and me being sinful from conception mean that it is not something programmed into my DNA but that God formed my sinful parts...and wove me sinful? God skillfully wrought me in sin? What does this say about God?

- If my baby is born sinful...how can I trust their cues? Aren't Ezzo and Pearl all then RIGHT in how they say to treat children? The foundation for their teaching IS the sinfulness of your child's flesh...and so if this is true then they are right and we should follow their advice.

- If my baby is born sinful...isn't Attachment Parenting just encouraging their flesh? And, if this is just encouraging their flesh, why does my responsiveness to their cues actually promote health in both them AND me?

- If my baby is born sinful...why do I (and the whole world pretty much) see them as sweet, innocent, and perfect?

- If my baby is born sinful...shouldn't I NOT be surprised when they sin? Isn't it expected and therefore no big deal? What does this say about God?

- If I believe my baby is born sinful, won't this affect everything I do with them...and everything everyone does with their babies? And, therefore ultimately won't that have an affect on the entire world once these children become adults?

- Why does Romans 5 say that, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" rather than explain that we are born sinful? Such an important doctrine and Paul says that death spread to all men because they all sinned...a verb. Because everyone sinned...death spread. Why did Paul say that if death spread because all are sinners from conception?


- The Bible says, "...and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." 1 Peter 2:24 Have you ever "seen" Jesus on the cross? 

When God sees your sin...He sees this...


Is that what God sees when He looks at a fertilized egg? Is this what God sees when He looks at a newborn baby?


- What does God mean here? Is God lying? Was Ezekiel confused?

“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." 
Ezekiel 18: 19-20


- Finally...I would have to ask...if despite all the questions...you insist on believing that we are different from Jesus...that we're born in sin...considering all of the implications against God's character that this makes...

Do these verses apply to you or can you say you believe Jesus came in the flesh...our flesh? 


1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.



I have the feeling I will be adding to this...
The conversation never stops inside my head...





The way I see it...

- God created Adam and Eve pure.


- They "knew the right thing to do and didn't do it." And, sinned.


- Humans are heavily influenced by examples and how we're treated.


- Now that Pandora's Box was open, God knew that sin would be taught to all generations thru the example of their parents, etc.


- Adam and Eve sinned in a perfect sinless world in the literal presence of God. No big leap of understanding to understand why sin has been universal.


- The angels sinned without physical bodies. Sin is a moral choice.


- God cursed the ground and cast Adam n' Eve out of the garden to give them a better chance of staying away from and resisting sin.


- God did everything in His power to help us overcome sin.


- Each person is born the same way Adam and Eve were created...neutral. Ready to learn.


- Adam and Eve were placed in a world that was perfect, but, sin was there...in the serpent. And, the potential for sin was there because God gave them a "do not do this" command that they were free to choose to disregard.


- Each of us is born into a world where sin is present. We all have the same futures...sin WILL present itself as a choice for us all and will we choose to do what we know is wrong?


- This means my parenting is critical to my child's future battle with their impulses and temptations.


- This means when Jesus said, "Unless you repent you'll perish" is because only those capable of comprehending repentance are likewise capable and culpable of sin.


- This means that when Jesus said we all need to become like little children...He means we need to be more sensitive to our drives and needs and not focused on sin.


- This is why God is not ridiculous to command us to not sin...because it is possible not to.


- This is why it's so virtuous of Jesus to have been tempted in all things AS ARE WE...YET! Without sin! 


- This is why Jesus did that...to show us it IS possible to resist sin.


- This means that no one is to blame for MY sin but me.


- This means the day I finally chose to sin...God's heart broke. 


- This means that God has done and is doing everything He can to fight sin and is hurt by it as much as we are.


- This means that I deserved nothing Jesus did for me because I walked into this mess of sin on my own, yet, despite my undeserving state...He chose to do it for me. 


The way I see it...everyone's sin is VERY ORIGINAL...each of us has our very own. Adam has nothing to do with it.





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